Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Listen up to our next guest who believes that art is bigger than all of us and really can be the forum to help people with so many things. Boje, our next guest is gonna teach us how to impact people. Do something she's so passionate and great at with just art and earn an incredible living. Ana. I think that what you do for a living is so, uh, important and a lot of people with creative skills, like you sell themselves short and aren't able to meet their financial goals because they trade them for their creative goals. Tell us how you have the confidence to do both.
Speaker 2 00:00:57 First of all, thank you for saying this. Thank you for having me. And then, uh, you said creative skills, but isn't business creative skills also?
Speaker 0 00:01:09 I believe so. So
Speaker 2 00:01:11 I think it's, it's the desire to pursue what you love to do and then the drive to make it work. So if I go fast forward, fast backwards. How do I say that?
Speaker 0 00:01:27 Fast, backwards. I like it. Fast, backwards, rewind. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:01:30 I just verb right <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:01:33 So if I rewind, uh, there is a saying, if you get 50 nos, one will be the right one. So I was enjoying myself getting nos from all around United States when I came here. And nos where, because I was either overqualified or I did not have, I had my green card, I did not have a citizenship, so it'll be just nobody on the other side of the line. So I decided, okay, if I could have make a business as a 20 year old back in Serbia, I can make a business anywhere, especially in United States. So that, that's, that's pretty much it. And then you decide, of course I had a skill and the talent that I'm doing what I'm doing right now, but also I studied design, so I knew how to actually approach that whole idea.
Speaker 0 00:02:29 Okay. I gotta just, there's a couple things you just brought up that bring me to my story that, um, I just wanna replay a little bit. Okay. One is, people would always stop me as I've been coming up in my journey and say, you're so creative. And I'd say, no, I'm not creative. Mm. You're so creative. And I'd say, no, I'm not creative. And you know what the reason was that, and I'm glad you just cleared this up for me. I was not able to say that I was creative because in my mind, if I were creative, I would not be as successful as I am because I had a framework in my mind that all artists talk about being starving artists. And I didn't wanna be starving. I have my goals. I wanted to meet them. So I thank you for pointing that out. I finally got to the point where I realized the game of business. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is super creative.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 Of course. Yeah. Think about either life figuring out, coming with solution is creative. I read a book recently and it says, we are all born creative. Doesn't mean that we all paint Right. Or we all create something.
Speaker 0 00:03:34 What's your medium? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:35 Exactly. It, it's just a different medium. It can also be raising kids is creative. Yeah. We both know that. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:03:43 <laugh>, if you're
Speaker 2 00:03:43 Not creative, you are done.
Speaker 0 00:03:45 You can't get through it. <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:03:46 Exactly. Yeah. Uh, meeting ends and we've, we all have been there is creative. That's the most creative business of all to try to figure out how to actually feed a family of two or four. That's right. With this many Yeah. Dollars or whatever the, the currency is. The currency is. So that's more creative than doing what we do. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:04:10 Yeah. You're a hundred percent. You're, you know, I think you're, um, being somebody who immigrated here. I love that you said that. And I wanna remind everybody, no matter on our hardest day, we are in America and our opportunities are enormous.
Speaker 2 00:04:26 That's why we got here. Right. That, that, that's the whole idea. And it's easy to, to brag about, oh, American dream is not American dream anymore. No. You don't go to ATM and push buttons and then money just comes out. Yeah. I figured that on the first day. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even question it, but there is no,
Speaker 2 00:04:45 There is no promise tomorrow. So if you have this, uh, in your mind and if you wake up, either you decide to be creative in business or you are an artist and you, you decide to paint, paintings are just another medium I created. I can create movies if I want to. You just need to get your, your mind set. And then, I mean, you woke up one day and what did you decide? Okay, I'm gonna make a business out of this. Yeah. And then you are still doing this every day. If you don't, then you, your business will stop and be sta That's right. Right.
Speaker 0 00:05:21 There's no get rich quick program. No, no such thing.
Speaker 2 00:05:24 Yeah. No,
Speaker 0 00:05:25 There's no, but you know, I think you, you're kind of under playing a lot of what you come to the table with is a very strong mindset. Where do you Absolutely. Where'd you get that?
Speaker 2 00:05:37 I don't know. I I, I know that I want my son, for example, to believe and not, not to believe, to know, to see the, the living proof that you can. You just need to decide what mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there is no right or wrong. There is no, oh, this is, this business is going to pay. Go be a doctor or go be whatever. You know, he's creative. He's the good creative <laugh>. So I should say, okay, go, go study architecture so you can make money. Don't be an artist or don't be a photographer. Don't be videographer, because there is little, this is just a personal opinion and saying starving artist. I think that the drive to break that code, not only for me, not only for him, for, for generations, because we grew up, no matter, I grew up on the other side of the planet and my both parents are very creative people and they both had amazing creative skills. My mom never pursue it. But if you see that woman, even now, the way that she dresses, she knows her colors. She, she can, she can dress your house in, in, in a heartbeat without even mentioning any kind of, um, training. She, it's in her. Yeah. And my father pursued creative business, but then he was serial entrepreneur, so where am I going to go wrong?
Speaker 0 00:07:13 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:13 But what they told me is, do you really need to go the artist way? And I said, why? So the reason wasn't because there is artist, uh, a starving artist is because if you learn, uh, different skills, artist is always gonna be new. So learn a skill to C 360, for example, to, to design clothing, learn, uh, a skill of business, of marketing for that. So yes, I did go to school to learn everything else but art.
Speaker 0 00:07:49 So
Speaker 2 00:07:50 You have, because I kept pushing, this is something that if, if you are a photographer, if you are, I don't like to say natural born, but if you have, if you have it in you to be a photographer or to be a singer, let's say musicians, you, you can't beat that. They can, you can single or not. Right?
Speaker 0 00:08:12 <laugh>. So tell me this, how do you establish, and, and we talk a lot about pricing on the podcast, you know, how do you establish value? So you, we talked about your confidence, and I can hear a lot of that comes from, you know, grit, and grit comes from, you know, parents who push you. And it sounds like you had these great parents and they, they were inclined and they also pushed you, pushed you to get smarter to learn and to pursue your creative. How do you have the confidence today to charge prices that are commensurate with your talent and not get pushed around? Do you have a middleman, like somebody who does the negotiating for you on your work? Or do you defend your pricing
Speaker 2 00:08:53 Today? It depends on which side of the business or what kind of business you're coming from. When I started, especially in United States, I and I speak with artists, especially when, if, if somebody comes for a training or, or mentoring, I will say that on my first 30 minutes. Don't underestimate yourself because I did. And then I share a, a full story. I was trying to sell for less something that is on a, on a level for more. And guess what? People will never buy it. You know that? Yeah. Because maybe you will, you will have 20% of sales if you pitch something like this. But if you are having a quality pro, uh, product and you put it in a first, you need to know where to place your, your work or your product. And if you place it wrong, it's the bottle of water.
Speaker 2 00:09:55 Right. If you, if you sell it in a, in a grocery store, if you sell it in Costco, or if you sell it in, in a, a gas station, or if you sell it in a, in a luxury hotel, where do we place that product? So I placed my product on the wrong pla uh, price in the wrong places. And I was not selling, and I did not sit down and cry. I figured out, okay, this is not gonna work. Now I have to place my product because I have what artist has to do and, and has to have no matter what medium you need to have your resume. And I had my resume. And uh, if you read my resume, and if you read, if you see what I'm doing and, and the prices that I'm showing at that moment, something was completely off. So learning, it's being willing to, to get up and go again and get up and fall again and go again. Because I wish that I can have fi five fails, five failures a day at least so I can learn something. If I don't have failures, what am I learning? Nothing.
Speaker 0 00:11:06 Only five a day.
Speaker 2 00:11:08 Oh yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:08 I feel like I have at least five before birthdays for coffee. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:11:11 More coffee. Exactly. Yeah. Or, or 50 or what. But that's a good, always a great opportunity. That's, that's
Speaker 0 00:11:18 Right. And failure is the way we get better, the way we learn and we have to get comfortable with it. Because otherwise, I always call it, if I am so comfortable and my job is so easy, then I'm running the railroad is what I say. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:11:33 I
Speaker 0 00:11:33 Agree. And I don't wanna run a railroad. I wanna build the railroad.
Speaker 2 00:11:36 Exactly. Yeah. So
Speaker 0 00:11:37 People, I think by nature of, so do you negotiate your price though, or does, does I, I'm curious because I see a lot of artists, they know they should ask for more. They wanna ask for more. But when you're looking at eyeball to eyeball with a customer and they say, well, we'll pay you this minus this. How do you defend that?
Speaker 2 00:11:57 Depends. Depends in of the situation. And I'm sorry I didn't answer that question earlier. Uh, depends on the situation. If it's a gallery, I will tell them, these are my prices. First, you need to do your home homework. As an artist, if you are reaching out to the gallery and you are saying, okay, this is my, um, portfolio, this is what I would love to work with you because I see that my portfolio actually aligns with what you are showing and what you can sell. And you obviously have customers or clients or collectors to do, so why would you lower your prices? Your price needs to be at a certain point. And as, as a artist in any, any kind of art, you, you put the work and you put hours of work, you put shows, you put, uh, you have your performances or whatever product you're selling, you are working. And those are years of development. So you need to keep developing. And this is how your price can go up. Also, you will be in demand in one point. So you need to be smart about their demand.
Speaker 0 00:13:09 So what does, for your own brand, um, and you've been so, um, successful on social media, what does next level look like for you?
Speaker 2 00:13:19 Not being on social media and being able to, to scale <laugh>? That, that's my, this is, this is what I, what I set as a personal goal. So somebody else will be for me a hundred percent on social media and I can, I can just watch and see what happens.
Speaker 0 00:13:37 So outsourcing your social media completely. Yes. Completely. Completely. And you doing the part of the business,
Speaker 2 00:13:42 I don't know how it's gonna look like. Yeah. Cause as we, you do, you like to control things.
Speaker 0 00:13:48 I love control more than that. For me, at least when I'm, um, underwater and very, very, um, you know, over scheduled and too much to do, that's the best time for me to delegate it. There's just no choice, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I, I the only way to scale is to delegate. So I've Oh, absolutely. I just gotten comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 00:14:12 That is,
Speaker 0 00:14:12 I, I'm more scared of,
Speaker 2 00:14:14 I got comfortable with
Speaker 0 00:14:15 This. I don't wanna say small, like that's just never something that intrigues me.
Speaker 2 00:14:19 So I got comfortable asking people for the price that I think that I need to, not that I think that, that I'm worth. Yeah. So you need to be comfortable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you need to know that you're not overcharging. And also what I learned from there is a book Art Money Success that I recommend to every single, uh, person who, who even is creative, it doesn't need to be artist. And in one chapter, she, she is mentioning, she said, you, you can't really, you are not doing yourself a favor if you try to estimate your potential buyer.
Speaker 0 00:14:58 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:59 You just need to know your prices. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:15:00 That's right.
Speaker 2 00:15:01 Because if something is $10,000 and you come to me and I said, oh yeah, sure. She should, she should afford it. And I tell you 20, that is not a good business. But if it's 10 and I tell you 10 and you want to negotiate. Yeah, absolutely. But also this is the price. Yeah. And you already living the 21st century, everything is transparent. Yeah. And not being transparent about how much something cost. Imagine if I call your, your, um, business and say, okay, this is what I need, how much it's gonna cost me. And if they tell me, well see, let's talk about this. Yeah. I will never come back. I'll go to somebody who will tell me the number. Yeah. So this is what artists need to do. And being comfortable to say that number, that's little bit stepping out of that idea. Starving artist or the gallery will do it for me, or the agent will do it for me. Or I did, I didn't have, I still don't have a full-time agent. I still don't have full-time, uh, art consultant that I work with. There is nobody who is who, who has a full representation for my work. Maybe when I'm dead, my son will have the royalties that you copyright. That's, that's pretty much it. But I'm still moving <laugh>. Right.
Speaker 0 00:16:30 Well, I think you've just, it, it's fascinating to hear your story. I think you have a lot of lessons about, you know, mindset and grit and knowing your worth. And I think that's a really solid thing for anybody, you know, to, to recognize. I think if you can't say your number, and I think about this time when I was 25 and I went into my boss, that was the one time I worked for somebody in my life, and I told him the number that I wanted to be making, and I thought he was going to spit up his drink. It was mm-hmm. <affirmative>, such a bodacious move. It was 25. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you know what, they found a way to get me there because they knew that
Speaker 2 00:17:11 You brought something to the table course that they didn't
Speaker 0 00:17:13 Find. Of course there was value. Yes. So I just think that people need to, it's not the number, it's not the price, it's the value. What's the value proposition Exactly. You're bringing to your client. And when you keep very focused on that, I think the number just goes along with it.
Speaker 2 00:17:28 You, I i hundred percent agree with you. If you know why you are doing what you are doing, if you know how you are doing, and this is typical branding, why, how and what, so what do you provide? What is my painting going to provide to somebody versus something else? Somebody else painting first They need to like it. That's 50% of business done. Yeah. If you reach out and you are, or if you are in my studio, or if you are, if we are talking, that means you like my art.
Speaker 0 00:17:59 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:00 If you are coming from a customers and there is no BS there, so this is 50% of business is done, now we need to find out where are you looking, seeing my, my work. And why are you buying it? Are you buying because it, it's going to live in a crate.
Speaker 0 00:18:19 Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker 2 00:18:21 Wait for another 10 years. Maybe that's a good investment, I will say, because it's my work. Right. And it'll be silly not to say that, but also I will ask, my first question will be, where do you see this? Where is it going? So then this is, this is the relationship, this is the communication. And then you are already building that.
Speaker 0 00:18:43 I think it's really also important that you just mentioned our consultants and managers, that you don't use them. And I've always read that the owner of a business or CEO or whatever you call the title, is always going to sell 30% more than anybody else. Like, just because of the sort of title and, and their owner. And you're the only person it comes from here. Yeah. That's actually doing their own work. But everyone else is outsourcing that negotiation to an agent, and then they're not happy with the results. So I think it's a great takeaway that a lot of times we just have to ask for what we want. Believe it. If it's not the right customer, move on, there'll be another customer. And to keep your pipeline so full of opportunities that you don't say yes to the wrong things.
Speaker 2 00:19:31 Pipeline always needs to be full. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> always, if you, you don't, because it's, it's hard to get it to the point any business, even if you're running a bakery
Speaker 0 00:19:41 Totally.
Speaker 2 00:19:44 To be to the point where actually every shelf is full and clients or customers are happy and everybody's buying fresh product. Right. Fresh cross. It's a build it, it maybe takes a year or two. Right. And then to allow yourself to, to let this dry, that, that's a silly, that's a, that's a bad business. Yeah. It's not easy. It, it sounds easy when I'm talking about this, but there we both know that you, you know that there are many days when you want to pull your hair and you, you are asking yourself, what in the world am I doing? Yeah. And then you're just shaking off. Right.
Speaker 0 00:20:25 Work, back to work, work
Speaker 2 00:20:26 Because you don't want to, a, you made a silent agreement with yourself or maybe loud agreement with yourself that you're not gonna work for anybody else. Right. So that's, I was happy when I got nos. I was applying for, uh, art, uh, jobs that, that have anything to do aligned with my skillset. And I got nos for many reasons. Not because I'm not skilled for many reasons. As I mentioned earlier, one of them will be, that was five years ago. You don't have a citizenship. Yes, I have a green card and I have a, a permit to work and then be nobody on the other side of the line. So I just decided, okay, this is the sign. This is not good. This is waste of time. This is, why am I knocking on the door? That is not opening ever. There's nobody out there. So let's just push forward.
Speaker 0 00:21:31 Well, thanks for sharing that story. I saw you perform an event, uh, last summer and, um, I think it was a modern luxury event. And you were so, um, everybody at the event was watching you. And I just know it's a, you're a magnet for doing what you do and just really taking your passion, but sharing it with the world, which I love your tagline. Uh, it's really very inspiring and thanks for sharing with other artists and entrepreneurs, some of the ways that you have been able to do what they love and meet your goals. Because I think that's what the Lady Boss podcast is about, is trying to help people really meet their goals faster.
Speaker 2 00:22:13 They should just keep going, not giving up. And yes, if you need to pay bills, just go get some stupid job that is gonna just pay the bills. But keep going,
Speaker 0 00:22:21 Keep going.
Speaker 2 00:22:22 You need, and you need to have a plan. Yep. Nothing without plan. And I actually learned that a long time ago, but you reminded me recently in one of your podcasts, you have to have a plan.
Speaker 0 00:22:34 Oh. If you don't mind just digging in one more layer on the pricing question, I still don't really understand. How would you put a price tag on something that you worked on recently?
Speaker 2 00:22:45 I will look at the hours that I spent. Look at the years, years I've been decades
Speaker 0 00:22:52 <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:22:52 And then I will take, I, I will decide what am I going to price a square foot? Hmm. And this is easy. So if the painting is, let's say 60 by 60, you will put 60 by 60 times 3.5, 5.3 minus right now at 3.5. So this is the end. This is the total price. 60 by 60 times 3.5
Speaker 0 00:23:21 Square square footage times 3.5.
Speaker 2 00:23:23 That's it. That's it. This is the, the canvas. This is the painted canvas.
Speaker 0 00:23:26 Okay. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:23:27 Okay. And then I'm going to, to add the, the price for framing, the price for delivering. And then on the other side.
Speaker 0 00:23:36 All right. So what's the math come up to? Because I, I can't follow along without my calculator. What does that come up to?
Speaker 2 00:23:41 So it's around, uh, so let's say 60 by 40 will be around $10,000. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:23:47 Yes. I just did the math. So a 60 by 60 would be times 3.5. You're looking at 12,600. Yes. Plus you mentioned delivery and framing. That's the buyer's cost. So let's call it 15.
Speaker 2 00:24:01 That's the buyer's cost.
Speaker 0 00:24:02 Okay. So $15,000, how much time did you spend to make $15,000 just approximately
Speaker 2 00:24:08 Today?
Speaker 0 00:24:09 Like how many hours do you think you have into that picture? What,
Speaker 2 00:24:13 In the painting? Between five and 10
Speaker 0 00:24:16 Hours. Okay. Yes. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:24:17 And 20 years, I have, I have, I, I published a real, actually, the, the, the actually events, that event that you were talking about CS magazine last year. Yes. I used that beautiful, uh, framing. Somebody recorded it and send it to me. It wasn't even a higher videographer. And it was three seconds. And I said, how many, how, how fast can you make a life painting? And I said, 15 minutes and 20 years.
Speaker 0 00:24:45 That's
Speaker 2 00:24:46 Right. That, that's pretty much it. And people, confession, why people can tell me that this is expensive. Some artist will tell me, this is not expensive. I am underestimating myself, but I know how I can produce and I know also what I'm producing and how many hours am I, am I spending, there are paintings that are quoting, uh, higher than that. Yeah. Then this is my new series, for example, because I'm spending more hours Yeah. On creating them. But my typical abstract painting or commissions go a little bit higher. They go times four. Yeah. But my typical, uh, abstract painting, that is the series that I decide, for example, today to create another 10 paintings. It's gonna be on that price. And I guarantee that by the end of the year, next year, I'm not sure about that. They're saying 5% up,
Speaker 0 00:25:43 Let's go bigger. I think our, our inflation's higher. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just a good point. So what would make, uh, 3.55, like what credentials or other check marks would you have to have? So that besides dying mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which I know a lot of people of course mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, would an artist have to have to say, my new calculation is 60 by 60 by five, as an example.
Speaker 2 00:26:07 I will say, do your, do your homework on any pricing, on any, anything that you want to deliver. And put a number on it in dollars or any currency you want to do your, you need to stand behind it and you need to do, you need to make sure that you did your homework. So talk with art prizes, talk with with galleries. Have have five galleries tell you, is this real? And then before you talk with them, you need to have the list of all your shows. And I was list, uh, recently talking with somebody, hotel show versus a gallery show, versus museum show. They all have different levels of prestige. It's a different value. Yeah. And we can call it prestige or we can call it work, or we can call it, um, accreditation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if I will to give one, one advice to, to young artists who did not go, go to, uh, classical schooling system.
Speaker 2 00:27:13 I will say, make sure that you pitch to the museums. Send your, uh, whatever idea you have sent to the museums. Do your research. There are museums out there that always accept proposals. Always accept proposals. They are not called Museum of Contemporary Art Chicago. But you have to start somewhere. Yep. And just don't, don't take no as personal as most of us do. Learn just to, to have a goal. It's a numbers game. And I love that. It, it is a numbers game. 50 nos one, one quality. Yes. That's it. I get excited when I get a no from a gallery. Literally I get excited closer to, yes. Okay. Okay. I know that this one is not gonna work. Let's keep going. Good mindset. Thank you Brianna. Thank you so much for having me.
